Stop Torturing Me With American Stupidity

Only a cold heart wouldn’t admire Christopher Hitchens for his willingness to experience water-boarding firsthand. He broke quickly, but who the hell wants to endure drowning, “simulated” or otherwise?

The past week has left me feeling sick to my stomach. It’s when many of my fellow Americans abandoned their warmbloodness by adamantly defining water-boarding as not torture, but as an acceptable method of “enhanced interrogation”. Forget that there’s a long legal and moral precedent calling it torture.

But there are two points on this subject that I haven’t yet heard anyone bring up. First off, if water-boarding is not to be called torture, then we’re creating a ready-made legal defense for those who water-board. An American citizen held in any foreign land could be treated to this method of interrogation, and we could not stand on any moral, or legal, high ground because we deprived ourselves of that privilege. And our own law enforcement (police, FBI, DEA, etc.) could not be held fully accountable if they chose to water-board prisoners. A defense lawyer could easily argue that the venue of the interrogation makes no difference to the definition of water-boarding. If it’s not torture in the military, it’s not torture in civilian life. Perhaps it’s simply a form of assault. Criminals of all sorts would certainly find a new legal definition advantageous.

The second point is that not calling water-boarding torture shifts the whole scale. equally unpleasant techniques could be redefined, too. Water-boarding deprives a person of oxygen and is called simulated drowning. So, should choking or dunking a person under water or placing a plastic bag over someone’s head for a prolonged period not to be called torture? They’re all as dangerous and as horrible as water-boarding. One could make the case.

This discussion makes me feel like I ‘ve been dragged back in time to a more morally ambiguous era.

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46 Comments

Filed under Politics

46 responses to “Stop Torturing Me With American Stupidity

  1. When it comes to torture you don’t like stupidity?

    Oh-Tay… what about water boarding???

    hahahahahahaha

    meow

  2. thedarwinreport

    No matter how many times I read your comment, I can’t decipher its meaning. I guess it’s only funny in your mind.

  3. mmm…

    well… when at war, do as the warriors do… fight to win. if the terrorists can’t handle a wee bit of water boarding, I guess they are wimplets! lol

  4. oh? the meaning of my first comment?

    Why… It was simply an attempt to torture you with American stupidity, dear!

    hahahahahahaha

  5. I remember when Hitchens did this. In the interview (which might be in the video up these if that’s the original Vanity Fair video) he said that before dropping the stick to signal stop, he was shouting for it to stop. Of couse, anyone who watched this knows that the shouting was all in his mind because he was silent before dropping the stick.

    I was reminded of this video yesterday when I saw that Sean Hannity volunteered to be waterboarded for charity (families of the troops) to prove it wasn’t so bad.

    Pardon my French, but What a douche!

  6. Hey Science Pundit? What to see what a real douche bags looks like?

    Watch this…

    now that, dear, is serious moonbat douche bagging.

  7. thedarwinreport

    VotingFemale,

    You completely avoided my argument against water-boarding and simply dropped a bunch of sarcasm. So, either you didn’t actually read it, or you’re incapable of presenting a coherent response in favor. Either way, you sound like just another impotent conservative who can only play the pseudo-patriotism card. How’s that, deary?

  8. thedarwinreport

    Yes, Sean Hannity seems to be the poster boy for douche-baggery. And VotingFemale is his poster girl.

  9. Hey Darwin?

    You call me a conservative like that is some sort of a bad thing!!! hehehehehehe

    I avoided your ad hominin arguement because it is a conclusion based on an untruth.. yawn.

    Actually, you can think whatever you want to think, dear. I was just prodding you to gauge your debating style.

    Resorting to personal attacks against a debate opponent is an admission of defeat. Let’s do some issues based debate, shall we?

    For example, explain to me how a president who supports the pulling off of babies heads, arms, and legs in an effort to kill them has the moral high ground over intelligence gatherers pouring water on a terrorist to extract intelligence to save the lives of Americans.

    If you have to resort to personal attacks on me, it is a debate declaration of defeat.

    Also… your presumptions of my political views are not fact based. You have obviously no clue what I actually think about partisan politics and the DEM and GOP.

    Ain’t politics fun??? tee-hee

    thedarwinreport,

    VotingFemale,

    You completely avoided my argument against water-boarding and simply dropped a bunch of sarcasm. So, either you didn’t actually read it, or you’re incapable of presenting a coherent response in favor. Either way, you sound like just another impotent conservative who can only play the pseudo-patriotism card. How’s that, deary?

  10. thedarwinreport

    For example, explain to me how a president who supports the pulling off of babies heads, arms, and legs in an effort to kill them has the moral high ground over intelligence gatherers pouring water on a terrorist to extract intelligence to save the lives of Americans.

    So you’re arguing for torture but against abortion, which you call torture? Inconsistent much?

    Water-boarding has been legally defined as torture for over 100 years. You can play all the childish word games you want –calling it “pouring water on a terrorist”. But I have no doubt that if someone did it to you, you’d end up whimpering and crying “torture.”

    The obvious difference between abortion and torture is that abortion is legal.

    Again, you avoided my original argument.

    And typing “hehehehehehe” after a comment makes you sound mentally unstable. I’d brake that habit, if I were you.

  11. Since commenting is a rather sterile venue, I insert things to show some emotions, thus the hehehehe

    And though I take under advisement, your unsolicited advice, I am not likely to ever stop regardless of what people think or don’t think.
    And frankly I view it as a bit presumptuous to be handing out unsolicited advice like that but whatever…

    The use of, or avoidance of, using harsh interrogations methods (I do not consider water boarding to be torture) is indeed a moral decision.

    Just as it is a moral issue to permit the death of babies because someone does not take responsibility for their actions, rape/incest/saving life of mother, notwithstanding.

    And sense you have knowledge of html control codes, perhaps you would quote the “origional point” you say I am avoiding.

    😀

    thedarwinreport
    April 25, 2009 at 5:30 pm

    For example, explain to me how a president who supports the pulling off of babies heads, arms, and legs in an effort to kill them has the moral high ground over intelligence gatherers pouring water on a terrorist to extract intelligence to save the lives of Americans.

    So you’re arguing for torture but against abortion, which you call torture? Inconsistent much?

    Water-boarding has been legally defined as torture for over 100 years. You can play all the childish word games you want –calling it “pouring water on a terrorist”. But I have no doubt that if someone did it to you, you’d end up whimpering and crying “torture.”

    The obvious difference between abortion and torture is that abortion is legal.

    Again, you avoided my original argument.

    And typing “hehehehehehe” after a comment makes you sound mentally unstable. I’d brake that habit, if I were you.

  12. Voting female said:

    I do not consider water boarding to be torture

    From the Wiki page:

    Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die. It is considered a form of torture by legal experts, politicians, war veterans, intelligence officials, military judges, and human rights organizations. As early as the Spanish Inquisition it was used for interrogation purposes, to punish and intimidate, and to force confessions.

    In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates a gag reflex almost immediately. The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, ultimately, death. Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years.

    Let me just state that I’m not trying to claim Wikipedia as some sort of authority, but the parts I highlighted (by bolding) are verifiable facts. You can believe that waterboarding isn’t torture all you want, but you’re simply not in sync with the rest of the developed world.

    I find it disturbingly ironic that you would say such a thing as a response to a video where Christopher Hitchens–who for the past eight years has been much more of a friend to the right than the left on issues relating to foriegn policy–subjected himself to the technique an then declared unequivocably that WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE!

    I think that it’s a safe assumption that not only have you never either been subjected to nor performed the procedure, but that you don’t even really understand what is happening during it.

  13. You quote Wiki as an authority on the definition of torture? hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Wiki is not a recognized authority on anything. That you would quote it knowing it is not an authoritative source is evidence you are grasping for straws.

    And there is no mistake that dismembering living babies is torture… killing them is murder.

    And to characterize pouring water on terrorists to gain intelligence information as “torture” is simply a Partisan political ploy to gain an advantage by one party over another party.

    And if you bothered to be informed with out your Liberal blinders on you would understand Pelosi and other DEM congressmen gave a pass on pouring water on terrorists in 2002. Though they deny it, it is a fact that will be proven. This witchhunt of theirs will bite them squarely on the ass… it has taken on a life of it’s own now and they can not prevent the coming public outing of their approval of water boarding and agreement it is not torture. That is just how stupid Pelosi and others are. Reality punishes the stupid.

    If Obama authorized the use of water boarding as may well happen in the future under very difficult situation… his party will reverse their partisan ploy and support him.

    I am not trying to convince you of anything… merely pointing out that this “water boarding is torture” ploy is well understood for what it really it.

    And the promotion of abortion induced torture of defenseless babies at the same time is ultimate hypocrisy.

    Since I am not a Republican nor a Democat I will leave you to wallow in your partisan self-justification system… But it is clearly seen for exactly what it is. Bull Sh*t.

    And both parties do it.

    Fair well, my cool aid sipping friend. Perhaps some day you will do some independent thinking when no one is looking… and make value judgments for yourself. Your party needs reform, just as the GOP needs reform. The reformers of both are the true Americans… not cool aid drinking sheep of both parties.

    Ever want to debate again, visit my blog. But be advised ahead of time… You will get your butt handed to you.

  14. Secular

    Your illiteracy and circular logic are astounding.

    No one has claimed wiki as an authority, the person who posted the exerpt stated as much in the same post the where the exerpt was given. the exerpt compiles information saving us from pages of individual interviews. and you invited criticism from darwin report by posting on his site.

    Waterboarding is torture. If you don’t belive me come down to kailua town, I’ll take you over to pearl and have my SERE instructor give you a sample. equating it to abortion does not absolve your lack of facts.

    Abortion on the other hand is not torture. legally aborted fetus don’t have enough sensation or cognative capability to experience “suffering” requisite in the definition of torture. I’d argue that they don’t meet the scientific definition of living either, but then you [or some other religious nut] comes back with some evangelical nonsense, in an attempt to discredit me. [Oh and before you try, I have a BA in poli-sci with a minor in religious studies]

    But I’ve digressed, as have you, from the initial reason for this thread.

    Darwin, yes the bush administration [as run by dick cheney] put many of our citizens abroad at risk by taking an isolationist stance, instigating an unnecessary war, and subjecting foriegn nationals to various degrees of sub-human conditions. Hopefully the new administration will improve our stance internationally, and make amends for the atrocities commited by the previous administration. [Hopefully with prosecutions] One reassuring instance was the release of the documents which detail the “enhanced interrogation techniques” [read: Torture] and the legal perameters thereof, giving potential victim’s of the practices knowledge of how to defeat the techniques. And while some will argue this gives comfort to the enemy, it all but assures us that our government won’t do it ever again. there are thousands of more effective ways to interrogate.

    Though I must point out that your assumption of the legality in any venue is misplaced. Military tribunals have different standards than civilian courts. the JAG corp has found ways to innoculate itself from the constitution [namely the 5th ammendment] and would thus have little difficulty doing so with waterboarding, which is why if you pay close attention to the talking heads there’s been no mention of tribunals. they only talk about prosecuting members of the CIA, Justice, and the Administration, none of which are subject to tribunal. Incidentally its also why the detention centers aren’t in the US.

  15. Secular

    I seemed to have left my masters in Biology out of my academic credentials. oops.

  16. Secular
    April 30, 2009 at 1:18 am

    Your illiteracy and circular logic are astounding.

    So your opening shot is a judgmental personal attack?

    Then with that stated you proceed with a ad hominim ??? This is just too rich!!!

    AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    That right there revealed your lack of debating experience and lack of skills.

    Waterboarding is torture. …equating it to abortion does not absolve your lack of facts.

    Now you state as a FACT that water boarding is torture without any factual back up.

    Define Torture… the definitive definition of torture… not examples of it… the true factual world wide accepted definition of torture. Ok?

    Do I think water boarding is extremely uncomfortable?

    duhhh of course!!! it is uncomfortable…

    that is the whole point.

    Is putting a bug on someone who is afraid of bugs uncomfortable?

    duhhhh of course it is uncomfortable.

    That is the whole point.

    Examples of real torture:

    * Extremely painful and physically damaging Electric Shock

    * whipping with a whip and with chains… such as a cat of nine tails… physically painful and inflects permanent damage.

    * tearing out fingernails- physicallt painful and inflicts physical damage

    * cutting off body parts

    * forcing someone to stand on one foot for hours… physically painful and damages the body

    * cutting open the abdomen and showing a person their intestines

    * burning a person with fire

    * sodomizing a person with a broken bottle

    The list of real torture is almost endless and all constitute physical pain and physical damage.

    Water Boarding constitutes no physical pain and no physical damage.

    The motivating factor ofwater boarding is inducement of FEAR.

    Get it? FEAR!!!!

    Abortion on the other hand is not torture.

    Yet another pronouncement of yours as if it were FACT.

    WRONG! This is the setup for your following ad hominim mumbo jumbo…

    legally aborted fetus don’t have enough sensation or cognative capability to experience “suffering” requisite in the definition of torture.

    Another ad hominin of yours… Lets you go watch an aborted baby whimper and cry as a result of pain. Let’s let you go watch abortions… see it for yourself… and lets watch you watch a living pre-maturely aborted living breathing feeling baby
    cry and moan… before your very eyes… then watch as it’s body is thrown into a trash receptacle.

    Your arguments are as hollow and a dried out as a goard…

    [Oh and before you try, I have a BA in poli-sci with a minor in religious studies]

    Your statement above is laughable…

    Ok, I’ll see your measly BA in poli-sci with a minor in religious studies and raise you a Doctorate in Medicine, Physics, Rocket Science, Physiology, with a Phd Astronomy and Metallurgy

    You seriously think you can puff yourself up with proclamations of education on a comment log of a blog on the internet???

    You are dreaming!!!!!!!

    HAHAHAHAHAHA

    And I pray… PRAY!!! That Obama & Co proceeds with their witch hunt!!!

    I can only dream they are that stupid and self-deluded into thinking that doing that will help their Socialist Party!!!!

    God, please!!! Let them do it!!!!!!!

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  17. will someone approach who actually knows how to debate? these amateurs are boring… yawn…

  18. thedarwinreport

    VotingFemale,

    will someone approach who actually knows how to debate? these amateurs are boring… yawn…

    You’re delusional if you think you’ve even offered any debate. You labeled pro-choice people hypocrites for being anti-waterboarding but pro-abortion, which is equating torture with abortion. But this position is obviously self-contradictory since you previously argued that waterboarding isn’t torture. Hehehehehehehehehe!

  19. CNN calls a bush head with horns and a Hitler ‘stashe a “Look Alike” and then goes postal over equating Obama to Fascism.

    that is hypocrisy….

    Every military person who undergoes interrogation resistance training has been water boarded for years… and Dem congressmen signed off on it for years… thus they promote so-called “torture” of American service men… but when it suits them for Partisan infighting they shreak OMG!!! TORTURE TORTURE!!! OMG OMG

    Dont Make me laugh….

    damn hypocrites the bunch…

  20. thedarwinreport

    If you can’t hold back your ranting and stick to the topic of water-boarding, you’re welcome to piss off.

  21. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    I’m a total loser.

    see ya!

  22. samiam60

    darwinreport, you are the clear and present loser in this debate. Give yourself a few years to evolve and maybe you will do better than the neanderthal you appear to be.

  23. sosdd

    Hey Darwin ,what don’t you understand about terrorism and war genious? If it takes ripping their balls off with a pair of pliers to get them to talk and saving hundreds of lives I am all for it. Waterboarding is a joke. The SOB terrorist should be lucky i am not conducting the interrogations because i would have them confessing to every crime committed in the last hundred years. What should we do genious tickle them on the bottom of their feet with a feather like president odumba would like us to do. I wonder how sick you would get if you turn on the news on night and heard that one of our cites got nuked, thousands of people died and we could have prevented it. Darwin, You need to evolve mentally because you just don’t get it dude.

  24. thedarwinreport

    What don’t you understand about the words “terrorist cell”? If you were part of a cell and one of your buddies were captured, would you still go ahead with the same plan of attack? So far, none of the information obtained from using torture has yielded any information that prevented an actual terrorist attack. Oh, yeah, and torture doesn’t work. You’d know this if you had actually listened to the congressional testimony.

  25. thedarwinreport

    Is a compassionate Christian who believes in a loving God here to tell me that torture is acceptable? The hypocrisy of religious types never surprises me. And the stupidity of Glen Beck fans and WorldNetDaily readers is never a surprise.

  26. sosdd

    Congressional testimony? hahahahahaha!!! The liars club!!!! Please!!! I don’t believe anything spin that comes from those communist. Waterboarding did work and it did save lives. They convieniently left that page out of the released report. Glen Beck fans? I suppose you get your news from that rabid loser keith doberman from MSLSD. You are living proof that brain washing works!

  27. sosdd

    VF, more comments from me to your buddy Darwin.

    Congressional testimony? hahahahahaha!!! The liars club!!!! Please!!! I don’t believe any spin that comes from those communist. Waterboarding did work and it did save lives. They convieniently left that page out of the released report. Glen Beck fans? I suppose you get your news from that rabid loser keith doberman from MSLSD. You are living proof that brain washing works!

  28. sosdd

    sorry for the duplicate comments. It’s late and I’m tired.

  29. sosdd

    Your comment earlier Darwin.

    If you can’t hold back your ranting and stick to the topic of water-boarding, you’re welcome to piss off.

    Piss off is a British expression so you are obviously British. It saddens me to see the castration of the once proud British people. Your country is going down the toilet faster than the US. At least you cousins the aussies still have their stones. BTW, VF is my friend in case you haven’t figured that out.

  30. sosdd

    No rebuttal comments Darwin? It appears the scared british turtle is hiding in his shell.

  31. Great post Darwin. Though you didn’t mention that Japanese soldiers were executed for using waterboarding to torture POW’s in WWII. I guess it’s only torture when it’s used on our troops.

    Ah VF up to your old tricks I see. When you can’t make a coherent point you bring in your little groupies to shout nonsense for you.

    Oh and Sammy boy should you come back usoloud wasn’t MartinT but deltaforce is soon to be DOA.

    Apologies for the off-topic, Darwin.

  32. Indycoltsfan

    Voice of the gods! LOL! What a joke!!! You should be the voice of the devil!! I AM NOT A VF GROUPIE DUMBA$$!!! Japanese water boarding and the american waterboarding are 2 completely different techniques.The Japanese version is much more brutal and people died from it. If you weren’t so stupid you would know that. Go read up on it genious before you open your ignorant mouth.

  33. “Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I’d get my breath, then they’d start over again… I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death.”

    Drop by Drop: Forgetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts

    Funny that sounds exactly like U.S. waterboarding to me.

    And considering you came here at the drowned kitty’s bidding, yeah that kind of makes you her groupie.

  34. Indycoltsfan

    newsflash!!! VOG!!! I speak for myself. The ball less interrogators in the US would not the poor terrorist suffer. After all they might get sued if they hurt the poor babies. This country is f**king pathetic!!

  35. Pathetic is failing to provide any facts to back up screaming rants. The U.S. sanctioned torture has not had any “reported” deaths as of yet, but all that means is that the U.S. has better torturers. The whole misguided point to torture is to inflict maximum pain and suffering to get information. Causing death means the torturers screwed up since dead men tell no tales. Of course this line of reasoning ignores the fact that torture does not foster credible information and undermines true interrogation techniques.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/17/AR2007121702151_pf.html

    http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2008/12/torture200812

    http://explore.georgetown.edu/news/?ID=20647

    Sure the words may come from your your computer, but all of the passion, vehemence, and direction comes from your leader VF.

  36. you four boys playing nicely?

    meow

    hahahahaahahahaha

  37. I see Darwin edited my fairwell post… to reverse my comment message

    typical

  38. thedarwinreport

    Just having a little fun. Anyway, your farewell post had no content.

  39. Indycoltsfan

    VOG, MY leader VF? hahahahahaha!!! I LOVE VF BUT I SPEAK FOR MYSELF AND I DON’T CARE ABOUT THE BS LINKS TO YOUR LIBERAL RAG WEBSITES!!!!

  40. Indycoltsfan

    I SEE THE SCARED BRITISH TURTLE DARWIN FINALLY CAME OUT OF HIS SHELL.

  41. Hmmmm all caps, scary. Are you losing your temper or losing your mind. Either way you lost the argument so time to go back to your boss like a good little henchman and let her lick your wounds.

  42. Indycoltsfan

    VOG, Just have your doctor up the dosage on your prozak prescription so you can go back to you fantasy La La land.

  43. Glad you got your dosage well enough to type coherently, but you still have not provided any substance to the debate other than baseless accusations. Still waiting on the boss lady to give you your talking points?

  44. thedarwinreport

    Indycoltsfan,

    I’ve noticed that saying nothing in as many words as possible is the favorite pastime of right-wing fools like yourself. And I’m not British –I was born and raised in the USA.

    You said: “This country is f**king pathetic!!”

    Your conservative upbringing must have been fucking pathetic. Too afraid to swear, are you?

  45. mandelbrot

    Ok, I’ll see your measly BA in poli-sci with a minor in religious studies and raise you a Doctorate in Medicine, Physics, Rocket Science, Physiology, with a Phd Astronomy and Metallurgy – Voting Female

    I’m sorry, I’m not really here to debate, I was just wondering how you got all these Doctorates (although I do appreciate the Physics).

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